4 Sept 2013 – Pedlars Certificate declined
Lou emailed pedlars.info 4 Sept 2013:
Hello, do you have any advice on what to do as my pedlars certificate application has been declined. I applied to sell consumer goods, balloons, hats, gloves, toys etc and I have been advised by the licensing officer that it has been declined as not being specific. I have passed all the police checks
pedlars.info reply:
Louisa… let us know what police jurisdiction you applied?
Robert
West Bromwich
pedlars.info reply:
Louisa
OK thanks… so that is West Midlands Police, Birmingham who are acting ultra vires.
Can you please send copy of their refusal letter so that we may draft a reply.
Under the Pedlars Act a pedlar may trade “any goods” any place any time any how.
Please also send us copy of an Application Form (they vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction) so that we may see what trick questions they want answered?
She did not give me a refusal letter, she told me over the telephone this morning
alternatively… get her name, rank, email address for us to correspond
her name is pc Page and she is the licensing officer and I have just telephoned and was told the email address is [redacted] Thank you
Just to let you know that she told me to resubmit another application and state ‘consumer goods, balloons, hats, gloves, toys etc ‘ and the reason I can not be specific as I intend to go the the warehouse and purchase what is available. When I asked her if what I state that I am selling will be on the certificate she said not, but if I get stopped by the police and have more than I said it will not look good.
In addition this is my second application as my first was to sell ice lollies and ice cream, but was declined and advised to speak the environmental health. Which I have done. ( I had to complete a second form and get my reference to sign again and bring in my ID)
So if I apply again as advised it will be my third application and she said I would need to get the references again and she would have to undertake the checks again.
email to PC Page 4 Sept 2013:
Dear PC Page
ref: Refusal to issue Pedlars Certificate to Louisa [redacted] 04.11.13
The above named has requested advice from www.pedlars.info.
We understand that her application for a pedlars certificate has today been refused on grounds of insufficient information about goods intended for trade.
We also understand that you as issuing officer for West Midlands Police advise reapplication with specific goods intended for trade.
The applicant advises us that she intends to trade in a variety of goods dependent upon daily weather forecasts and the range of goods available from wholesalers.
The Pedlars Act Section 5 provides legislative criteria for applicants seeking a certificate, namely “17, good character & good intent”.
The Pedlars Act Section 3 provides any person to trade “any goods, wares or merchandise”.
It would therefore appear that the applicant fulfills all legislative requirements and retains discretion to trade “any goods as per the Pedlars Act” (this being the additional information/business interest requested on the West Midlands Police Application Form).
We believe that there are no grounds for refusal and that your decision may be ultra vires.
We ask you therefore to reconsider issuing a pedlars certificate to the applicant.
If not we ask that you place, in writing, the lawful grounds for refusal to enable the applicant to take legal advice and appeal the decision under Section 15 of the Pedlars Act.
Yours sincerely
reply from PC Page 5 Sept:
Mr Campbell-Lloyd,
Reference your email below.
In the first instance I would like to correct the information provided to you by the applicant. The application was NOT refused and was certainly not refused on the basis that the applicant has stated.
The Superintendent, who is required to authorise and sign the application form had asked me to contact the applicant to complete again, due to the fact that some of the handwritten details are ineligible. The Superintendent had also asked that she provide a little more additional information in regard to the items that she will be selling, purely for information.
I informed the applicant that all she needs do is complete the form again, as above, and return it to myself and I would then pass this to the Superintendent for authorisation and signature, and subsequent issue of the Certificate.
I am fully aware of the legislation surrounding the Pedlars Act and the requirements, as is the Superintendent that viewed the application. The application was only returned to be completed correctly, legibly and with a little more additional information to assist in the process of the application.
The applicant was fully aware of this as I had a lengthy conversation with her and it was made clear to her that all she need do is return a newly completed form, and that I would await the completed application form from her.
Regards,
PC 1754 Donna Page
5 Sept:
Dear Ms Page
Thank you for your response.
I will inform Ms [redacted] accordingly.
Can you confirm that she may return to your office to make eligible/legible the handwriting and avoid beginning the process again?
Most grateful.
Yours sincerely
6 Sept:
Dear Ms Page
I trust that you received my email below of yesterday’s date.
To assist the applicant she will need to know whether your original reply meant that you could not read her handwriting or whether some of the application details were not lawfully able to be considered. There is some ambiguity in the text.
If the latter then please confirm what was ineligible so that we may further advise.
Regarding the Superintendent’s request for additional information, the applicant cannot predict one year in advance what goods she will trade and for clarity we have advised “any goods as per the Pedlars Act”. Please confirm if there is an issue with this wording.
As the formal process of obtaining references has already been submitted then there seems no apparent reason not to progress the process.
The applicant is willing to return to your office to edit the application and awaits an appointment.
Yours sincerely
6 Sept:
Mr Campbell-Lloyd,
Please see the below extract from my original email.
“The Superintendent, who is required to authorise and sign the application form had asked me to contact the applicant to complete again, due to the fact that some of the handwritten details are ineligible. The Superintendent had also asked that she provide a little more additional information in regard to the items that she will be selling, purely for information.
I informed the applicant that all she needs do is complete the form again, as above, and return it to myself and I would then pass this to the Superintendent for authorisation and signature…”
I dont believe there was any ambiguity in my original email. The applicant needs to complete the form again, in handwriting that is legible and, purely for information purposes, the Superintendent is asking for a little more information as to what the applicant is looking to sell. This is a legitimate request as the form itself states,
“PLEASE PROVIDE THE FOLLOWING ADDITIONAL INFORMATION WHICH WILL ASSIST IN THE PROCESS OF YOUR APPLICATION”
As stated previously, I did explain this in detail over the phone during a lengthy conversation with her two days ago.
Regards
6 Sept:
Dear Ms Page
Thank you for your reply.
I had read your original email that prompted concern about textual ambiguity.
The ambiguity lies in your choice of words namely “ineligible” having legal implication and “legibly” inferring that handwritten text was not legible.
The request for clarification was obvious and ensures that the applicant has exercised due diligence.
You have not responded to the proposed text regarding “additional information” and ask therefore that you escalate approval of the proposed text to the Superintendent to reply directly.
My role as administrator at pedlars.info is to assist potential applicants and seek clarification as required and we trust that you will understand our concern.
We now understand that the applicant is prepared to lodge a further application.
I shall await a response from the Superintendent on the question of “additional information” and approval of the applicant’s proposed text as follows:
I am by trade & occupation… a pedlar as per Section 3 of the Pedlars Act.
Business interest for which pedlar’s certificate is intended to be used… to trade any goods as per the Pedlars Act Section 3 retaining the lawful right to exercise discretion over what goods &/or services suitable for seasonal changes and entrepreneurial opportunities.
Yours sincerely
Mr Campbell-LLoyd,
In order to prevent this matter continuing unnecessarily with the same messages being passed continually, I will repeat again in terms that can not be misconstrued or seen as ‘ambiguous’ ,
* The form needs to be completed again in handwriting that is legible (able to be read)
* any additional information in the section that will ‘assist’ the process of the application
As you point out and as I am aware, the applicant does not have to put anything in there other than what is prescribed in law, however I think the point is being missed here, all the applicant needs to do is to put some additional information on there as to what she may be selling, whether that be generic or not. That is all the Superintendent is asking for.
Neither I or the Superintendent are asking for anything more than is prescribed in law, merely for the applicant to add as much information as she can.
I am unsure as to which you are referring when you state I have “not responded to the proposed text”. I have responded during the course of the emails, my responses have all been of the same content, it would be inappropriate of me to tell or suggest to someone what they should include on the form.
I will make my Superintendent aware of the email contact I have had with yourself and the applicant, including this most recent one. However, I would suggest that if the applicant completes the form as described and submits it at the police station for my attention, then the matter will be resolved and the certificate issued.
I am keen for this matter to be resolved as I’m sure the applicant is, therefore I would be grateful if you could liaise with the applicant and advise me if she will be submitting the form in the near future.
Regards,
18 Sept:
Hello
Just to let you know that my certificate is now ready and hopefully I can collect it tomorrow.
Thank you for your help and I will make a donation once I make my first sale. Hopefully I will not get to much hassle from Birmingham City Council.
Kind regards
Lou
Lou
Congratulations step 1 completed.
Step 2 is to apply your entrepreneurial skills and we wish you well.
It is invariably a rocky road re enforcement authorities and we advise that you keep a pencil handy to log any incidents that occur along the way.
As you run into problems take down names and contact info and let us know the details.
We can trouble shoot most problems and give instant advice… you might like to keep my tel number handy 00353***.
If you are told you cannot do something be sure that the person provides the precise legislative reference that they rely on.
very best wishes from all of us
Robert